Source: Byte Yuan CKB

In the latest issue of the orange book podcast, Li Yang invited Jan Xie, the chief architect of NERVOS to talk about the related topics of Bitcoin Layer 2.
The following is the text draft based on the audio of podcasts. The full text is about 20,000 words. In order to facilitate reading, some small titles are added.

Opening remark

1. Why does it say, “CKB is the ideal bitcoin of bitcoin?”

2. What is Bitcoin Layer 2?

3. The more influential Bitcoin Layer 2 project

4. Will the inscriptions make the development of Bitcoin Layer 2 greatly accelerate?

5. How can CKB do the Layer 2 of Bitcoin?

6. What do I do after migrating Bitcoin to the second floor?What can I do?

7. CKB: Contract kernel of Bitcoin

8. Layer 2 is difficult to achieve the security of Layer 1

9. How can Bitcoin Layer 2 develop?

10. AMM or Order Book depends on the form of Layer 2

11. What is the key to competition between Layer 2?

12. NERVOS’s strategy

13. Web3 is losing the original good thing

14. Bandit vs. scholar

15. What kind of person do you want to recruit?

1. Opening Frequent

Li Yang (host):Hello everyone, welcome to listen to the Orange Book. This issue is still the Bitcoin ecosystem. The theme is Bitcoin Layer 2.

At the end of the last issue, I had a strong feeling at the time: the inscription was only the first wave of the Bitcoin ecosystem, and we just started.But what I didn’t expect is that the new trend and new track of Bitcoin Layer 2 can get hot at so soon.

I tell a ghost story. At present, there are already 34 Bitcoin Layer 2 on the market. Those who have not been made public have more than 60.These add up to more than 100 Bitcoin Layer 2 are competing.I don’t remember which track is the crowded track in the last currency circle ecology.If I ask you now, what does Bitcoin Layer 2 mean?What can it be used?I guess you probably like me, you don’t know.Those who are really doing these projects may be able to say one or two. Others have heard of such a word, but what exactly is it, I don’t know.I have a feeling that it is likely to pass three or four months. Bitcoin Layer 2 will be as lively as when the inscription last year came out, because it is actually hidden underwater.Let everyone see it.

Anyway, the guest I invited this issue is Jan Xie.He is the chief architect of Nervos CKB, and is the person who I know most in line with the title of “technical idealism”.His experience is very rich, mainly technology, he has cultivated in the Bitcoin ecology and Ethereum ecology for a long time.

We talked about how the ecology of the Bitcoin Layer 2 started, how to evolve, what are the attempts and explorations in the ecology, and the new opportunities brought by the inscription to Bitcoin Layer 2.Of course, we also talked about what attitude and strategy of CKB for the Bitcoin Layer 2 market, and why CKB is the ideal Bitcoin Layer 2.

2. Why does it say, “CKB is the ideal Bitcoin”?

Li Yang (host):I saw you wrote a long push on Twitter some time ago, sayingWhy CKB is the ideal bitcoin Layer 2EssenceAt that time, I saw that Twitter was quite unexpected. Can I understand that this is a PIVOT of CKB?

Jan xie:I think it can be said to be Pivot, or we can actually do what we were doing.

The reason why I say such a word is because in the large market environment, or in the entire Crypto circle, especially in the second half of 2023, there has been greatly changed.This change comes from a series of market changes after the emergence of Ordinals and BRC-20.I feel the most obvious is that before everyone didn’t seem to pay much attention to the Bitcoin ecosystem or something in UTXO ecosystem. Everyone would think that Ethereum had won, the battle of the public chain was over, and then Ethereum was the future.Do it on it.

However, the appearance of Ordinals and BRC-20 allows everyone to see new possibilities and find that there is still a large blue ocean here.There was nothing in the past, very barren, there are a lot of passive assets on it. BTC is passive. I can only hold it with it.Maybe you want to get a dollar or 5 cents to play.Now everyone thinks this thing seems to be done.

Then, no matter what effect, the wealth effect is still a variety of reasons. Many users enter this ecology, and many developers also start learning and observing what should be done on UTXO. Everyone starts to talk about UTXO. Everyone starts to talk aboutVarious restrictions on UTXO, even accepting such restrictions, just like previous users and developers will accept various restrictions on Ethereum.This is a very big change.

When I see this change, I will feel that this may be a good opportunity to let everyone understand what we are doing and what CKB is doing.Because CKB has always been very persistent, POW is good, UTXO, insist that we should walk along the road of Bitcoin, instead of saying a 180 -degree steering, and suddenly transferred to the account mode (account model) or POS.When I used to talk to others about these things, it may be that our own ability is limited, it is difficult to get recognition, or it is difficult to attract the interest of others, but today we go to talk about this, and it seems that the situation has changed. Everyone will很容易理解， “UTXO 这个也很有意思，我最近也在看，我也想了解UTXO 上还能做哪些东西。比特币上面有很多限制，你们这儿的UTXO 有什么不一样？” 就是说，最The basic views have begun to change, so I think it is a good thing for us.There is a saying called “Of course, it is necessary to rely on self -struggle, but also take into account the process of history.” I think this is the process of history.Because of the changes in the environment, it makes us feel that this is a good angle, so that everyone can understand what a CKB is.

We can think of CKB as a Layer 2 of Bitcoin.We can think about what is Layer 2?How to define it?Why is CKB in line with this definition?This is why I send that Twitter.

Li Yang (host):I have a similar feeling. It seems that in recent months, everyone suddenly started to say that “Ethereum is about to be finished.” This group was still “hug Ethereum” a few months ago.The feeling of pushing everyone in the wall is incredible.

3. What is Bitcoin Layer 2?

Li Yang (host):If CKB is the Layer 2 of Bitcoin, I think the most important thing is what we are already familiar with Ethereum Layer 2, but the Layer 2 of Bitcoin has no concept.What do you think of Bitcoin’s Layer 2?

Jan xie:I think from history, the earliest concept should be Off-Chain, corresponding to on-chain.

We have a lot of things in the chain, the so-called On-Chain, whether it is calculation or storage, or something else.Do on the chain. For various reasons, its performance is very limited, and its upgrade ability is very limited, so we will want to move something outside the chain.When thinking about this perspective, a variety of Off-Chain protocols have been evolved.I think the word OFF-Chain can contain all Layer 2, Layer 3, and Layer N in it.

In off-chain, there may be only some simple structures at the beginning, such as one-way Channel.At that time, there were no other structures. There was only one simplest one -way Channel. This was discussed very early on the Bitcoin Forum. In fact, Bitcoin had already existed.

Then, the concept of off-chain slowly developed and became more complicated. For example, can we construct a two-way Channel?Can we go to another chain, and then connect these two chains in some way?Can we all be miraced mining?Can we construct a two -way Channel, and then combine it and become a network?

Therefore, if you look back at history, Off-Chain has a very clear evolution path. People step by step add more and more complicated concepts and more and more complicated structures.The simple structure evolves into a complex structure, and finally it becomes a series of more sophisticated series of concepts. We can be divided into Layer 2 in it, and then we can be divided into Channel or Chain in Layer 2. Basically these two are these two.Category.

Therefore, before Ethereum appeared, the OFF-Chain protocol was actually a research in many research.Of course, at that time, it was more limited to Bitcoin’s own ability.Due to the limitation of programming ability, it has no way to go far in design and can only go forward in a small step.

After Ethereum came out, in fact, there were many roads in the middle. For example, at the beginning, we had to do Sharding (shard), and then said that State Channel was to be done in the middle, and then Plasma, and finally Rollow was very good.So for a long time on Ethereum, the so -called Rollup Centric Roadmap was finally formed.Ethereum is finally set to a prince, saying that Layer 1 has to optimize Rollup, so the Sharding plan has to be changed. To find a way to add more storage space for Rollup on Layer 1.

I think it may be the characteristics of people, that is, the memory in front of us is always the freshest, and we are in front of us are rollup, so when Layer 2 is rollup, we will be used to standing from the angle of Rollup to think about Layer 2.EssenceThis is a very natural thing, especially for those who do not belong to the industry and developers who do not belong to this industry, and are just a group that occasionally care about, Rollup is the most impressive thing.However, if you look back at that long history, so many evolution plans, then the concept of Layer 2 is very broad.

So, if you want me to give a definition, I will feel that Layer 2 is first of all OFF-Chain, it is not on the chain, and then it has some connection with Layer 1.It should be associated with Layer 2 instead of connecting Layer 1. This means layer.

Then, Layer 2 can provide some strong capabilities for Layer 1, regardless of whether this ability is performance or contract, or privacy.I think that for these three perspectives, we can solve the problem of performance, programming ability, and privacy issues through Layer 2. Then it directly has some form of connection with Layer 1., Mercy Mining, or that there is a bridge connected, this bridge in the Bitcoin ecosystem is called TWO-WAY PEG (2WP). In the Ethereum ecosystemThe correlation of the level is the economic relationship.

This is my definition of Layer 2, and it will be relatively broad.

Li Yang (host):When it comes to defining this matter, in the Bitcoin ecosystem, at least no one can determine the Layer 2, I don’t know if it will be determined in the future.

Jan xie:I think this is a place where the Bitcoin ecosystem is more fun. Everyone will have their own ideas. Everyone can say that the team in the Bitcoin ecosystem does not have to worry about saying that today I said this is good. Tomorrow Satoshi (Satoshi Nakamoto) tomorrow (Satoshi Nakamoto)Will come out and say that you are wrong, let your project be killed directly.This is actually a very random event, but I think it may not happen in the Bitcoin ecosystem.However, in the Bitcoin ecosystem, you may require stronger abilities in other aspects, participate in a more intense competition, and fierce battle, because no one will jump out and say that you are right.People can help you, you can only rely on yourself.

4. More influential Bitcoin Layer 2 project

Li Yang (host):In Layer 2, which Bitcoin is running now, which projects are more influential or have a future?

Jan xie:This can be counted, and I may not be very comprehensive.

I think the most influential is Lightning (Lightning Network).Lightning has been developing for a long time and has been advancing slowly. In fact, it has been iterating technically, but everyone is called Lightning from the outside. I really like Channel Network.

The advantage of it is that its scalability has no upper limit in theory, unlike other solutions, there is a more obvious bottleneck on the protocol.Channel I don’t think this problem, but it really has to encounter a lot of problems in terms of engineering, so its progress is very slow and there are many challenges. This is very interesting.The more interesting it, it is not theoretically impossible. It is theoretically possible, but you don’t know how to solve it now.

For example, a very interesting problem like Channel Network. Here is a network composed of Channel. A to B is a path, B to C is a path, C to D is a path, and then A needs to send one to F a onePen money, this money can be disassembled into many strokes, such as 10 yuan, can be split into 10 1 yuan, and then send it from different paths.So how do we guarantee that these 10 1 dollars can reach F at the same time, either all success or all fails?

This is actually a problem in the classic map theory, or it is a problem that people who have studied data networks in the past.For example, this is how our Internet packaging is issued today. The packets can be split into many, reaching the destination from different paths, which is a matter of route.But in the value network, this problem has become extremely complicated, because we now pass on value, assets, not data.

What are the differences in this?For example, when everyone usually does not realize that when we pass the data, the channel of the data transmitted (can simply believe that the network cable between the two computers) is infinite, and I can always pass it.Li Yang, you sit here, I can always send you a message, this channel itself will not be lost.However, in the value network, in the lightning network, if I want to transfer money from the channel, the capacity of the channel itself will be lost.For example, at the beginning, there was 100 yuan at my end, and there was no money on your side. After I transferred 10 yuan and 10 yuan, I had no money here. You have 100 yuan there.Give you more money, but this channel cannot be used.

Because of these differences, the entire lightning value network is much more complicated than the data network.Lightning is also a very complicated problem because of money to consider safety.Lightning has developed for so many years, and I think it is still steadily going forward, although it is difficult.For a long time, everyone criticized that “the Lightning Network has developed slowly and Bitcoin has not improved.” I think it is not because this problem is too difficult. Everyone is not a matter of comparing the same difficulty.I think the Channel Based Layer 2 is that it is more difficult to be born than the CHAIN ​​BASED LAYER 2. The former has too much problem to solve it, and don’t forget that the Lightning Network it plays a very high goal for yourself -set a very high goal — Solving the problem of privacy at the same time.This is very complicated.When you want to solve privacy, for example, when the lightning network can be used in TON, I have to consider how to protect privacy in each link, and the whole thing will become very complicated.

Anyway, I like this project very much.Speaking, the Lightning Network is a layer 2.

Then there is liquid, which is actually a SideChain (side chain) made by Blockstream. The earliest Paper is called itself SideChain.The consensus of liquid is POA (Proof of Authority, authoritative certificate). You can simply think that it is one more sign. There are 10 people here. Everyone comes out together and take turns.The bridge between liquid and Bitcoin is called TWO-WAY PEG (2WP) in the Bitcoin ecosystem. The two-way anchoring is also a signing.Therefore, it is a signed side chain plus a bridge.

The interesting thing about liquid is that on the one hand, it actually wants to help Bitcoin Scale, so that some transfers can be cheaper. On the other hand, it wants to be the best technical and thought in Bitcoin, because it and Bitcoin Layer 1 are basically basically the basisHomorrhea, but introduced a lot of technologies to be implemented on Layer 1, but because various resistance is difficult to achieve directly on Layer 1, such as privacy protection, such as Covenant.

After having these things, you can actually take Layer 3 on LIQUID, for example, you can put Lightning on liquid.Lightning’s Open and Close are settled to the layer of Layer 1, but if you turn Lightning into Layer 3 to Layer 2, the capacity of Lightning itself will also increase.

Therefore, Liquid is a good experimental field.If you don’t mind its centralization and need trust, in fact, its user experience will be better, because the handling fee above is cheaper, and it is basically the same as Bitcoin and UTXO.

In addition, there is a project that stacked a EVM layer on Bitcoin, and Bitcoin Merge Mining, called RootStock.RootStock is also a good project. It has made a lot of improvements at the consensus layer and Bitcoin Merge Mining.I think their technology is also very solid.

However, there are many problems with Mercy Mining, because it basically delivered Layer 2’s security to Layer 1’s Bitcoin Miner (Bitcoin miner).Bitcoin Miner does not necessarily care about the interests of Layer 2 itself, that is, their interests are not necessarily aligned, because Layer 2 has no effect on Bitcoin Miner. As long as Layer 1 is not finished, you can continue mining.

Therefore, most of Mercy Mining has always been criticized that most Bitcoin computing power can easily attack any Merbed Mining Chain.This is the criticism I think ROOTSTOCK may face.There are also some other projects along the MERGED MINING line. They may have to solve these problems for a long time. This situation will not occur from Incentive or other perspectives.Saying DriveChain, it is also the direction of Mercy Mining.

There are also some projects, such as Stacks, which recently made a very important design upgrade, which may be closer to itself and Bitcoin.In my opinion, Stacks is more like a SideChain, although it has made a lot of adjustments now.In its new adjustment, it uses various methods to demonstrate and describe how Stacks is binding with Bitcoin Layer 1 now, and how to put the data on Bitcoin Layer 1, so that the Bitcoin Layer 1 is finalized, Layer 2 alsoFinalize.But in fact I still think that Stacks is a sizeChain.

There are several places in Stacks.The first is that its consensus is very interesting. Stacks requires everyone to lock the BTC to participate in its consensus in Layer 1.Secondly, it combines consensus with the design of its own bridge. You need Stake Stacks’s own token STX to participate in the number of signatures of the bridge.In other words, although it is essentially a bridge, these parties participating in the number of more are Permissionless (no license). You can participate in the bridge’s multiple signing as long as you pledge STX.The advantage of participating in multiple visas is that the BTC is rewarded, because the assets cross from the bridge, and the handling fee is paid with BTC, and some BTC comes from the BTC pledged by the Stacks Miner participating in the POX.So Stacks has such a series of interesting designs.

On Stacks Layer 2, the programming ability will be more powerful, you can do more things.Stacks designed a programming language called Clarity.Clarity is a more secure language that can formally verify.

Therefore, this upgrade of Stacks, I feel that at the consensus level and the bridge level, it is more closely combined with Bitcoin. It may be a strategy that was more alienated with Layer 1 before, and now it is a closer strategy.

Recently, there is a project that is not a side chain, but a Staking layer called Babylon.The Babylon protocol allows everyone to use BTC to use BTC on Bitcoin to make staking to ensure the safety of other chains of other Layer 2.I think it is a bit like Eigenlayer on Ethereum. The latter does restaking, and Babylon does it with BTCIn on Bitcoin to ensure the safety of Layer 2.Layer 2 can be the chain of POS.

The above is the Bitcoin Layer 2 project that I can think of and find it more interesting now.

Li Yang (host):Except for Babylon is a relatively new chain, several other chains are still very old. At least three or four years of history, Lightning is a little longer.I am more familiar with Lightning and Stacks. I have basically never heard of its progress in liquid.Now I feel that Lightning is like a group of scientists studying a very difficult question. It is a bit like doing controllable nuclear fusion. It is very good but very difficult. I do n’t know when it can be achieved.Several other projects are pursuing solutions, it is not easy to make clear, or it seems that users do not care so much.I don’t know if that, right?

Jan xie:It is not exactly, because I think in the future, the ecology of the entire Layer 2 should be coexisting in various types of projects.

Among them, Lightning is particularly different, because it is based on Channel, and its bottom idea is completely different.The Channel Based scheme and the Chain Based solution, in my opinion, has their own advantages and disadvantages.I personally like Lightning, and I like the Channel Based solution, but it also has its problem.

For example, the first is the problem of the Channel Liquidity, that is, the problem of liquidity management.I just gave an example before, I transferred you, and I had to have money at this end of Channel. I can transfer it to you. If the money on my side is used up, I can’t continue to transfer you.This means that if I am a new user, I want to open a channel and can transfer money to others. When I can find a way to build the Channel first, I can DEPOSIT on my side first, and save some of them first.The money that is transferred is very troublesome for ordinary users.

Another problem is that liquidity management is very troublesome.If I have always transferred you money, it may always be one -way. For example, I am a boss, you are an employee, I have always transferred you money, and I may have no money here after paying three salary. I willIf you find a way to remove the Channel and re -open a Channel to continue the money, or I want to come up with a solution and re -inject the liquidity in the inside, I can continue to transfer money.The influence of these things is all aspects. If the simplest and rude method is used to turn off the Channel and open one, it means that you want to send a transaction on Layer 1, which is also troublesome.

For another example, if you are a new user and others want to transfer you money, you have to have a Channel first.As a comparison, on the chain Rollup, if you are a new user, you actually do not need to have any relationship with Rollup. You may not have used RollUp, but as long as you give me an address, I can transfer you money to youYou can spend this money as long as you open the account on the rollup with your key one day. You don’t need to do so much preparation now, which is very friendly to personal users.

Channel also has many management work.For example, when you open the channel, you need to set a variety of fee. When you wait for this Channel to check, the handling fee may be very high. The Fee you set up before may not be enough or need to be adjusted. You need to use very complicated ones.Some mechanisms to adjust the handling fee of the transaction are a very annoying question.

Therefore, in general, I personally feel that it is not suitable for ordinary users or C -side users based on Channel 2.If you are just an ordinary person and you don’t want to make it so complicated, you are also willing to trust some third -party people, or you will be 100 yuan in total, you will lose it if you lose it.In fact, it is particularly suitable for the Layer 2 of Chain Based.

I think it is suitable for B2B scenes.If you are a B -side and you have some real Business, you may need the privacy protection ability of the lightning network, or the super -strong scalability (scalability) of the lightning network. At the same time, you have professional ability and willingness to manageThese can.B -end is actually willing to manage.We can imagine the B -side as a Bank (bank), and hiring some people to manage is not a problem at all. There can even be a special Team (team) to manage Channel.C -side users may not be willing to do these things, but in turn, C -side users may be willing to use Rollup or SideChain, which are very friendly to C -side users.

How can these chains be transferred to each other?This may be able to help many busy.Channel can transfer liquidity between the chain and the chain. As long as I open the Channel on both sides, and then integrate it into a large channel network, the assets can flow freely in it.

Therefore, in the long run, these projects may be coexisting, and they are actually complementary.

5. Will the inscriptions make the development of Bitcoin Layer 2 greatly accelerate?

Li Yang (host):Before the appearance of the inscription, there are no demands for these more common C -side users, which may be because these solutions are not mature enough.In other words, I think that the Bitcoin of everyone before is to stock up. After the inscription appears, many talents have begun to use it to operate on the chain and frequently operate Bitcoin on the chain.What I want to ask is that the inscriptions and the later recovery will greatly accelerate the development of Bitcoin’s ecology or Bitcoin Layer 2, or is it more targeted?

Jan xie:I think it will definitely, because the inscription boom is very similar to the 1c0 on Ethereum. I also see many people have the same view. Everyone is saying that, I also have a very strong feeling.

The inscription itself can bring new users and create a lot of new assets, but it has no way to solve the nothing to do on Bitcoin, except for the assets, there is nothing to do.This is very different from Ethereum. Ethereum’s Layer 1 can already do a lot of things. After 1c0, we can continue to do a lot of things on Ethereum, but on Bitcoin, after the assets are issued, if you want to do more things, then you will do more.It can only be done outside the chain, only off-chain, and can only be done on Layer 2.

Therefore, I think the inscription will definitely allow more attention, more users, more funds to the OFF-Chain or Layer 2 ecosystem.

6. How will CKB do Layer 2 of Bitcoin?


Li Yang (host):How can CKB do the Layer 2 of Bitcoin?


Jan xie:In fact, CKB in the Layer 2 framework of Bitcoin, from classification, I think that CKB can be divided into Sovereign Chain.If you study it, there is one type of SOVEREIGN Chain. They have their own consensus. They have some connection with Bitcoin blockchain. CKB actually has its own consensus and has its own POW.

For CKB, to become the Layer 2 of BTC, a necessary thing is the bridge between it and BTC.This bridge can be centralized, decentralized, and can be both centralized and decentralized.Bridge is a necessary condition. After the bridge, the assets above BTC can be transferred to CKB, and more scenes can be used.

In addition to the bridge, I think some of the nature of CKB can distinguish CKB and other Bitcoin Layer 2.For example, CKB can support a variety of signatures, which means that the application on CKB can be directly operated by the Bitcoin wallet, similar to when we talk about Ethereum Layer 2, you will definitely have an impression, that is, that is, that is, that is, that is, that is, that is, that is, that is, that is, that is, that isLayer 2 should also be operated with Metamask.

Therefore, for users, they can observe that everyone belongs to an ecology, and I think this is also important because this is related to the important user threshold.For Bitcoin users, if you use Unisat in Layer 1, Layer 2 uses Metamask, I think it will be awkward.

Of course, CKB also supports this. You can lock the assets into the address of Bitcoin, and then you can use a Bitcoin wallet to unlock it.In terms of user experience, although users are using Layer 2, he may not understand what Layer 2 is, and does not understand the technology, but from the perspective of the user, he has always been in the Bitcoin ecosystem.I may even feel that I have been operating on Bitcoin, but in fact many operations occur on Layer 2.

So in this experience, I think even we may be better than Lighting.Everyone can’t feel that I went from one place to another.Bridge and user experience, these are what CKB can do.

For developers, when you come to Layer 2, what do you need to do things?You have entered the world of the EVM Account model, or you still stay in the world of UTXO. I think both developers may be available.CKB will be more suitable for those technical architectures that appreciate Bitcoin. I prefer to do things in the world of UTXO, and then the developers who are familiar with both sides; there is a developer who does not care about this, but if he wants to let him a day in one dayDo something on UTXO, and do something on the account on the other day, which is more tossing.Because this means that your thinking model must be switched. The most typical is the bridge. If you want to make a bridge, you must write a contract on Layer 1, and you need to write a contract on Layer 2. There may be other other other.thing.But if you just want to do something on Layer 2, it doesn’t matter what model Layer 2 is.

So I think that for developers, the advantage of CKB is that it is homogeneous as Bitcoin. Many things you think are used to it and even very convenient, because there are more things that can be done here.So CKB needs to do something. I think one is the user experience and the other is the developer experience.We do the bridge and provide a variety of tools so that developers can feel very convenient when they can do their own application. This is what we want to do.

Li Yang (host):It was said that users can use Unisat to operate both Bitcoin and CKB.Does this operation need Unisat to adapt to CKB?

Jan xie:This operation does not require Unisat to do anything. Any bitcoin wallet, it only needs to have a signature interface.Because the adaptation is made in the CKB contract, CKB’s contract has the ability to verify the signature.No matter what kind of signature algorithm you use or the signature calculated by the hash algorithm, because the ultimate wallet is to sign a transaction, and then the end of the contract on the chain.This signature is indeed signed for the transaction.

CKB has a ability to achieve a variety of cryptographic algorithms on CKB. Whether it is Bitcoin’s most primitive SECP256K1, or the new Schnorr, these are all realized on CKB.And it is also simple to implement on CKB. Because CKB is a virtual machine for RISC-V, it can be directly transplanted to the implementation of these cryptographic algorithms in Bitcoin.If you write it, Rust is written well, because it has been realized, so I can run away in the virtual machine of CKB without being transplanted.

This is not the same as Ethereum, because if you want to be transplanted on Ethereum, you may have to rewrite the algers of C to the algorithm of solidity, or Rust’s rewriting into solidity.This rewriting process may be introduced again.The first cost was very large, and the second cost was not to ensure safety. The third was that you did it. It took a lot of costs. It also had a low performance.So few people do such things.

But these problems do not exist on CKB, so this is why CKB is a place that can be compatible with various cryptographic algorithms.This ability allows CKB to easily support wallets like Unisat.

Li Yang (host):It is equivalent to using Unisat wallet all the way to migrate Bitcoin to CKB, and then take this bitcoin on CKB for subsequent operations, such as inscriptions, buying and selling.

Jan xie:Yes.

Li Yang (host):Then this experience is pretty good, because I feel very reluctant to change a wallet every time.For users, the next new wallet, whether it is psychological or practical, is a great threshold.

Jan xie:Therefore, if you look at all these Layer 2, I think it is one category that can maintain the same user experience and developers as Bitcoin.There may be different positioning and different user groups.

7. What should I do after migrating Bitcoin to the second floor?What can I do?


Li Yang (host):The experience of Layer 2 in Ethereum will feel that it is difficult to be called Layer 2, which is not compatible with EVM or Metamask, and it will be more difficult to migrate from the user base.So CKB is the second floor. What do I do after migrating Bitcoin to the second floor?What can developers do and what users can do?

Jan xie:This is a good question. I think there are actually a lot of things that I can do, because CKB is a improved UTXO model.A Jian wrote a good article “From Bitcoin Applied programming to understand the programmability of CKB“, Everyone can take a look, I think he explains very clearly.

This improvement is mainly reflected in several aspects.First of all, at the level of the virtual machine, because you can only write things through Bitcoin Script on Bitcoin. This Script is a very simple, a little Script with a Chain -style style.This is the limit of expressing ability in virtual machines and contracts.

But on CKB, we fully implemented the RISC-V instruction set.Risc-V is a new chip instruction set that has been developed for more than ten years and has been widely accepted in the industry.So in fact, you can use a variety of programming languages ​​to do things on CKB, which is the extension on the instruction set.

The other is an extension on the UTXO model.On CKB, more arbitrary data can be stored in each UTXO, not just a value like UTXO amount.On Bitcoin, a UTXO can actually save the data that is nothing more than how many SATS in UTXO, and UTXO belongs to whom, just two things.

But on CKB, what is extra things in UTXO, what is it?One is any data, you can put a song in it, save a picture, and save a file; what you can do is put a TypeScript in UTXO. This typescript actually describes the nature of the data. The data is changing the data changes.What rules should it meet?For example, there is a poem in UTXO, and then I can use TypeScript to write: Every time I modify the poem of UTXO, it can only be increased backwards, and the previous poems cannot be modified. Everyone can only add it at the end.This is a rule of data modification, which is a improvement.

Another is in the UTXO of CKB. Your script or contract can read data in other UTXO, which is different from Bitcoin.For another example, due to these capabilities, CKB’s Script can easily implement functions such as Covenant.The so -called Covenant is what I produce a new UTXO script or address when I want to specify that the UTXO is spent in the script of UTXO.

Without the ability of Covenant, then I unlock the new UTXO generated after the current UTXO. I do n’t have any restrictions. How do you want to set up a new UTXO?But with Covenant, I can actually limit a series of UTXO in the future.This thing is a very important nature.Does this nature determine whether you can do Layer 2 like Rollup on Bitcoin? If it is not possible, you can’t do it. You can do it.Therefore, this is why Covenant is very hot now. Everyone is discussing whether we can add it to Layer 1, but these things are naturally existing on CKB.

With these things, a variety of FT assets can be achieved on CKB, FUNGible Token, which can achieve NFT, can achieve DEFI and DAO, can achieve a variety of Governance, Autonomous World, and all kinds of exactly in the chain chain chainThe game.

Therefore, in fact, you can do anything, and everything you can do on Ethereum can be done on CKB.The difference between them is like it may be done on the iPhone on Ethereum, and you do on Android on CKB. The bottom structure of their underlying layers is different.CKB’s UTXO structure, it is easier to understand a developer, that is, it is actually very much like git.GitHub, the world’s largest programmer dating website, has a variety of code warehouses on it.The tool behind github is Git, a tool for warehouse management.

CKB is like a big git that everyone uses together. Like github, you can put anything on github, you can put C code, Python code, poetry, articles, you can use github to write blogs, or you can pass it in it in itThe picture can also be compiled in some binary in it. No one understands, only you know what it is.

So CKB is like such a large warehouse, and anyone can put anything inside.In this warehouse, the ownership of each file is very clear. This file is Li Yang, only Li Yang can change it. That file is JAN, only JAN can change it.There are also some documents that are shared by everyone, and anyone can change it, but before you want to change it, you must pass some inspections. This inspection rules are written through contracts.The storage and modification of the large warehouse data that is jointly maintained around the world. These inspections to be done in this warehouse have a POW consensus to guarantee.Then in such a warehouse, in fact, you can do anything you want to do and make any applications.

Li Yang (Moderator): When you just said iPhone and Android, I suddenly had an idea. Can you understand it so?That is to say, if Bitcoin is an original version of Android, it is open source. Ethereum is affected by it. It has made a relatively more functional and stronger, but it is the iPhone model.CKB may now be a bit like a high -end Android based on this open source.

8. CKB: Contract kernel of Bitcoin


Li Yang (host):I read Yang Min’s comments before commented “CKB: Contract kernel of Bitcoin”.What is Contract Kernel?

Jan xie:He actually understood Bitcoin as the issue and storage layer of assets.We can use Bitcoin to make a very safe value storage warehouse, and we exist in all the money.

But there is nothing in our big vault. If we want to find the assets inside, find a place that can be applied, and build a variety of products. The things behind it are actually the core of execution, because I am because I am because I amTo write a variety of product logic, and then need a execution engine to perform these logic.

Contract kernel is actually an execution engine.As an execution engine, it is very complementary to a SOV Layer 1. We can put assets of Layer 1, Bitcoin, or even issue various assets on Bitcoin, such as inscriptions, and then we can put these assets.Use them to use them with stronger execution capabilities.

Li Yang (host):So we can not only cross Bitcoin to CKB, but we can also cross the inscription on CKB?

Jan xie:Yes, I think this angle is actually an extension of Bitcoin design philosophy, that is, we only need to do Verification in Layer 1, and we do calculations in OFF-Chain, then Contract kernel or executes.Move the calculation to CKB and leave Verification on BTC.

For CKB, the interesting part is that compared to BTC, each layer 2 may be both Verification and Computation.Because each layer 2 can have its own Layer 3, then this layer 2 is compatic than BTC, but it is Verification compared to Layer 3.Contract kernel is actually a computing layer for Bitcoin.

9. Layer 2 is difficult to achieve the safety of Layer 1


Li Yang (host):I found that it was very interesting. When we just talked about the various Layer 2 of Bitcoin, the safety of these Layer 2 and the relationship between Bitcoin Layer 1 did not seem to be tied upGet so tight.Recently, Layer 2 of Ethereum said in a quarrel that some small Layer 2 wants to be independent and not pay taxes to those Layer 1, but when we just discussed the Bitcoin side, it seems that there is no discussion on this layer, such as paying taxes, such as tax payment.The problem, the relationship seems to be more loose, is it?

Jan xie:I think so, it may be because the development path of Layer 2 on both sides is different.Ethereum I think it was forced to move towards the development path of Layer 2, because it was Shaarding at first.Bitcoin is actually forced because Layer 1 can’t do anything.It’s just that Bitcoin can’t do anything from the beginning, so I wanted to develop Layer 2 from the beginning, and Ethereum developed Layer 2 afterwards.After walking to Layer 2, because Core Team is dominating the entire direction, Core Team will really want to bind Layer 2 and Ethereum Layer 1, and the best way to bind is safe. This is safe. This is safe. This is safe. This is safe. This is safe. This is safe.It is also very Make Sense, just like the court spread layer by layer. The higher court can overthrow the judgment of the lower court, so that Layer 2 can get the same security of Layer 1.

But Layer 2 is unlikely to be completely similar to Layer 1, because Layer 1 has a variety of restrictions, and Bitcoin has various limits, so you are unlikely to do it.

Some time ago I also pushed it, saying that if you must achieve a security similar to Layer 1, then the lightning network or channel Layer 2 may be able to achieve the security of close to Layer 1.It is almost the same as rollup. The biggest risk point is that when you want to quit from Layer 1, what should I do if Layer 1 is very blocked?The handling fee on Layer 1 is very high. Your exit transaction cannot be ranked within a limited time. This is the only risk point, and others are gone.

But on Bitcoin, in addition to Channel, if you want to do the same security as Layer 1 on the route of the chain, I think it is very difficult, unless Layer 1 does some Hard fork to add some functions.Because the core point is limited by Bitcoin’s own ability, at least there is no way to achieve a very safe Two-Way PEG (2WP), or that bridge.

We may be able to securely implement the bridge from Bitcoin to Layer 2, because the ability of Layer 2 chain is strong enough, we can implement the Light Client of Bitcoin, or Bitcoin’s SPV Client.But when I go back, Bitcoin has no way to realize the Light Client of Layer 2 chain, and it has no way to verify what happened above Layer 2 really happened. The Bitcoin chain has no ability.Therefore, when the assets go from the direction of Layer 2 to Layer 1, they will definitely be limited by various types, or the design of this bridge must be made of various Trade OFFs.Therefore, this is a basic limit on Bitcoin, and you cannot achieve complete security.

But in turn, Layer 2 is as safe as Layer 1. Is this proposition itself established? This should be considered. It is just a proposition.It may be proposed by the Ethereum community, saying that we want to achieve it, this is a goal, but is this goal a must?This is not necessarily.Because of the difference between Layer 1 and Layer 2, in my opinion, it is that Layer 2 can sacrifice some security, decentralization, Trustless to get some other things.Layer 2 is here to do the Trade OFF. What really does not really have to do is done on Layer 1, but I ca n’t do it, so I think that I want to move something to the off chain.

If you ask if there is a kind of puzzle in this world, let us move things to OFF Chain without any disadvantages. I think this does not exist.Even Rollup and Channel I don’t think it exists.Because they still have some vertical points that make it difficult for you to solve.

Therefore, we need to accept OFF CHAIN ​​or Layer 2 No matter what you do, you need some trade off, but sometimes you may only talk about benefits in publicity, rarely talk about bad places, or rarely talk about the premise.The premise is actually very important, and the premise may often be ignored by people.

For example, I saw a topic that everyone was arguing today is “Validium is not as safe as rollup”.There are actually a lot of prerequisites in it.Validium is actually a ZK-Rollup, but the guarantee of this ZK-Rollup DA is not Ethereum, but another DA layer (data availability layer).The previous conclusion actually hides a lot of prerequisites. Why is Validium is not as safe as rollup, because you assume that its DA Layer is not as safe as Ethereum Da Layer.Then I can mention a very magical Case, if I use Bitcoin to do DA Layer and make such a validium, is it safer than Rollup or is not safe than Rollup?You may need to argue that Ethereum is a DA layer, which is safer than Bitcoin, then you may not be established.

When we talk about these things on Twitter, everyone will not talk about these premises.Therefore, I think this is a reason for many conclusions or concepts, but this is difficult to avoid, because there are so a few words on Twitter, and everyone has no time to give you so much.

Therefore, what I want to say is to go-Chinese, it is actually a compromise. It is unrealistic that we realize that it is unrealistic to do SCALE and do various things on Layer 1.I think the Bitcoin community accepts this idea more. The fundamental reason is that Bitcoin was limited at the beginning, so everyone was easy to accept.But in the Ethereum community, everyone may think in the beginning that Ethereum Layer 1 is all -round, then our Layer 2 should also be all -round, and naturally extend in this direction.I think the Ethereum community needs more time to accept such a change, and realize that there are actually many trade off in it.

Li Yang (host):The Ethereum community seems to be young people, I don’t want to travel.Although I feel young, at least not old, but in the past few years, I think TRADE OFF is omnipresent.

Jan xie:But everyone doesn’t like listening to Trade OFF. Everyone likes to listen to “I want both, I can do it.”

10. How will Bitcoin Layer 2 develop?

Li Yang (host):How do you think Bitcoin Layer 2 will develop?

Jan xie:Next, because Bitcoin was halved in April, I think there will be the first wave of Layer 2 around April.Because time is here, if you want to chase this time window, you can only do it fiercely. You ca n’t think so much. As long as you can make up, you will first come out to seize the opportunity of this market.I think there will be a wave of waves at that time. After that, in these projects, everyone will see more problems, just like inscriptions.

In the beginning, the inscription BRC-20 directly borrowed the ordinals protocol to write the data inside, and then Indexer.Everyone was also very happy at first, and then I started to find that indexer had its own problems. The two indexer were inconsistent, or centralized, the more developed the more centralized.What do we do?After Inscripting, there will be Atomicals, there will be various other things come out, trying to try to solve the previous wave of problems.

I think Layer 2 is the same.There will be a wave of waves around the beginning of April.What do you do and what is the most suitable for Bitcoin. Think about this idea and solve these problems.

Therefore, Layer 2 may have one or two waves, and it is developed in parallel. It is a project that is applied to Layer 2. Some people will make a variety of applications.

Now this wave of Layer 2 will pursue the expansion of contract capabilities, whether it is EVM or WASM or a CKB RISC-V.This wave should not be able to pursue Privacy, because Privacy is difficult to do, and time can’t keep up.Scability may not be so important, because it will be faster than Bitcoin, and Bitcoin is a very low starting point. As long as you are faster than Bitcoin, don’t pull too much down.Therefore, everyone’s focus is on all kinds of applications on it.

As a project party, if you want to develop an ecology, the most convenient and most resources can be attracted by EVM.There are many mature tools, codes and developers on EVM, which is the fastest.But EVM is the most suitable for Bitcoin. I’m not sure, and I may not agree with it.Because I think Bitcoin has its own things, has its own UTXO, has its own values, etc. Many are different, but these will not block the first wave of Layer 2 as this way.

In the future, as more and more people come in, more and more people begin to study the characteristics of Bitcoin and the characteristics of UTXO.Design for the characteristics of Bitcoin instead of simply grafting.

11. AMM or Order Book depends on the form of Layer 2


Li Yang (host):Ethereum 1c0 fire is ERC-20, and Bitcoin’s 1c0 fire is inscription.Obviously, the inscription and ERC-20 are very different. Even if the inscription is in Layer 2, it will not suddenly gone. It is likely that it will continue to occupy a large proportion of the initial part of the assets, if not all.So very natural, the two needs of inscriptions and transactions will be very different if they provide them, and the supporting infrastructure will be very different.

Jan xie:What you said is different, what are the different aspects?

Li Yang (host):For example, I think it should not be able to use AMM to solve the inscription’s transaction needs directly.

Jan xie:I don’t think it must be.Because when the inscription cross the chain from Layer 1 to Layer 2, it actually depends on what the Layer 2 itself is. If it itself is an EVM route, it can easily make an AMM on it.

Here is a distinction that Chinese inscriptions may correspond to inclption or BRC-20. These two things are actually different.If you are talking about incrim, then it is definitely not AMM because it is NFT; if you are talking about BRC-20, it is actually a FT. Then it is on Layer 2 and enter AMM to play. There is nothing impossible.Essence

I think this may be more characteristic of Layer 2.If Layer 2 is still an UTXO chain, I think it is very interesting. Although you can still make AMM in the UTXO architecture, AMM is not necessarily the most suitable product form. Maybe the Order Book is more suitable. This is the structure of UTXO’s structure.Decided.On the contrary, AMM is a good product form on the account model. The Order Book DEX appeared on Ethereum, but it died, and finally UNISWAP won.

Therefore, I think it depends on what kind of form is very dependent on Layer 2.

I think there are two types of inscriptions. No matter what Layer 2 is, it should be able to adapt as a valuable asset.Because assets are like water and high liquidity, Shapeless can change into any shape and enter any application to play a role.I think so.

12. What is the key to competition between layer 2?

Li Yang (host):What do you think is the key to competition between Layer 2?

Jan xie:I think, first of all, big opportunities are important, such as around April, Bitcoin is halved.Everyone has been starting a business for so many years. In fact, there are many ways to start a business. “Grasp the time window” is one of them.If you think you should invest more resources at this time, you must seize these three months. If you can grab 70% of the market share in these three months, you will win.Very normal idea.

But there is another idea, that is, we are very optimistic about the future of the Bitcoin ecosystem, just like when you stand in 2016 and 2017, when you go through 1C0, you say that we must seize this window period and seize usJust win, we can’t catch us, we die, we will not start a business.In fact, if you look back, you will feel wrong, because 1c0 brings the development of many stages of the following series.And today we have seen many successful projects on Ethereum. In fact, after a long time, some may be left in the 1C0 era, and some may come out after the 1C0 era.This is also a path.

Some teams are good at seizing the market window, and some teams are not good at.In fact, whether it is the WEB3 entrepreneurial, CYPTO entrepreneurship, or other fields, I think it is the same.Therefore, it is difficult to say which method must win.For individuals, it is difficult to say that this method will definitely make me win, but from a macro perspective, because there are large laws, that is, there may be 1 or 2 projects at this stage.At this stage, the winners can continue to do more development later, which may develop better. Each stage has grown 2 times or even 10 times, and finally grows into a big thing. It may also be very developed at this stage.Okay, I did not seize the opportunity later, or did not do well, and then slowly died, which is also possible.

I think that some people will win at this stage. This is a stage of grabbing time. The fastest team will have an advantage. That is to say, a team is very clear about what the market wants now, then vote for it.Put the resources inside, first occupy the market share.Teams with such thinking may have an advantage.

Li Yang (host):Is it your strategy fast?

Jan xie:Fast is not our characteristic, we are characterized by slow speed.

13. NERVOS strategy

Li Yang (host):If the speed is slow, what is your one -year strategy?

Jan xie:For NERVOS, the slow speed is determined by the beginning, and it may be determined by the team’s temperament.Everyone should understand that Nervos is a relatively strong team, especially for projects like Layer 1. Now we can say that it is Layer 2 of Bitcoin.When doing the CKB project, whether you think of it as Layer 1 or Layer 2, safety is always what we focus on. It is difficult to do it quickly.

Moreover, our thinking is a long -term thinking.We see a lot of things to do, and it takes a lot of time to invest in it for a long time.Another way to start a business is to say that I will try this idea in three months. If I try it, I will change the idea. You can restart a project. This is very easy and can develop from scratch.This is actually very easy.But NERVOS is not such a project, so you will consider more.

If you want to ask for a year’s strategy, we continue from Bitcoin’s side, and we have always hoped to make a small, Core Team small, more community -driven projects.This may also be a problem that everyone thinks of the problem.Such projects usually have great disadvantages.

Compared with a team like Solana, it can have a strong center Core Team, and then we can concentrate resources to promote some things.But Nervos doesn’t want to do this. I think this is a choice, and everyone may have different views.You can say that this is not suitable for the market, or it is not suitable for this era, but I think this is our biggest strategy. We should have a small Core Team as much as possible, and then help our community to do more things as much as possible to do more things.Essence

We think that the industry of Cryto comes from the origin. We hope to go down the origin, instead of repeating the mistake of the Internet. It is a pity.I have been in contact with the Internet after 1995. I have experienced cats using cats. Now I may not know what the cat is. I have experienced that era and also experienced the forums and chat rooms of that era.When I was in college, there was a BBS in the university. It was based on the Telnet protocol, a very old protocol, but still existed in the university.I have experienced a hundred flowers, and in the era of real forums, I miss it very much.I think it was the first best thing in the Internet or web2, but these things gradually disappeared after 2000, no matter what reason, there were various reasons.

Today we have Social Network, but it is completely different from the atmosphere on the Internet at that time. It may also be because there are more users and the user base is large, but I feel that it was different from that time.This may also be due to the natural defects of the web2 protocol. The data protocol layer is stateless. The data requires a centralized institution to keep it. This will cause data to be concentrated in the hands of some large companies, bringing all kindsI will not start.

But after the web3 or blockchain came, let everyone see a possibility, that is, we may return to the original vision of the Internet. I do n’t want to see that web3 also experiences a process like web2. At the beginningEveryone feels good, and then it is more and more discovering that it is the same, and everything goes back in the end.I am actually very worried about this, because there is already a strong trend now. Maybe we have all the ideals of web3 and all the vision will fail, because now we can see that there are so worrying points in many places.

Back to NERVOS, we want to insist on finding a path on the basis of the original wish, keep these good things, and carry forward.If it is only retained, no one will not use it; if many people use it, but you are no longer the first thing, it may not work.Therefore, I don’t want to be any of these two results. It may be a bit like young people. It is necessary to do it. Here we don’t want to be Trade OFF.Do you understand what I mean?

Li Yang (host):You want to keep the good things at the beginning of the web3, but also hope that it will not disappear, but develops greatly.

Jan xie:right.

14. Web3 is losing the original good thing

Li Yang (host):You just said that you have seen such signs, saying that we may lose these things. What are the signs of these signs?

Jan xie:Let me give some examples, there are many points of worry.

For example, the development of the entire Crypto technology direction, if we look at the Ethereum to Solana, this is a very worrying trend.No matter what Ethereum said, I think Vitalik is at least more insisting, but the Ethereum ecology may give up these points in many cases of competition pressure.

The Ethereum ecology itself has this problem, because I am very impressed, like Ethereum’s researcher Justin Drake, I don’t think he cares about any decentralization and non -decentralization. I have talked about similar things in a public meeting. ThisIt is some of the Ethereum ecosystem.

Develop in this direction, you will find that Solana may be a more correct architecture.Ethereum ecology does not care about itself. Solana may say that I don’t care, and we don’t care about decentralization. We have performance and a good user experience. A transaction is confirmed for 0.5 seconds.This direction is good, but in fact, the value of web3 will return to the value of web2. If you use the user experience to evaluate everything, then everything you can return to Web2.

For example, Ethereum, like Eigenlayer, we kept talking about Staking and RESTAKING. First, POW turned POS, and then POS Staking. It was not enough, but also RestAKing.What is the value orientation here?The value orientation here is capital efficiency, right?My ETH is locked inside, I can’t move anymore. I’m so annoying. If I can get out of the restAKE, what can I do with it, so happy, right?

Needless to say that it is right or wrong, it is at least two dimensions, that is, not to persist in the previous dimension, but now find a new dimension and optimize the new dimension. As for the previous dimension, we have forgotten.

What is the impact of RestAKing’s security on Layer 1?What does the entanglement between POS Staking and Defi affect POS?No one talked about this.What we consider will always be optimized for ETH’s efficiency. As for what it affects the security of Ethereum Layer 1, it is good to forget him, just forget it.

But this is influential, right?The simplest example is that if ETH borrowing interest in Compound is high, I will not stake in Ethereum Staking, and I will take it out to compound to borrow, right?Therefore, they are actually entangled with each other. Any application layer design will affect the security of the POS itself, but these things have been forgotten.

In fact, before POW turned POS, there were still some voices in the ecology that we were going to analyze these things and write PAPER. You can search for some discussions in this area, but it seems that after the POS is turned, these things are forgotten.People talk about it again, and now go further, want Restaking.

Therefore, if you look at this trend, I think it is a bad trend, which is one aspect.

For another example, packing a lot of web2 concepts into Web3, affecting Web3’s Builders and Developers, making them feel that it is good when they are built, so there is no problem.But in fact, I think many times may be digging ourselves. For example, when we all accept POS, there is no problem. TVL high is a good indicator. It is very important to user experience.If we always use these indicators to evaluate a CRYPTO project, it may be 10 years or without 10 years. It may only take 3 years. Many large companies in Web2 can make very successful projects under this framework.

The simplest example is Coinbase. It makes a chain called Base, which is actually a chain of an exchange. No matter what you call Optimistic Rollup.There are many details in it, not to say that it is Rollup, it is decentralized and safe.Coinbase is a chain, naturally has funds, natural users, and natural brand effects.If you want to open a new POS chain, without any cost, you can grab your market share right away.

We think about exaggeration. Three years later, the Crypto world is so large that the company in Web2 has begun to enter the market.Apple said that it is necessary to make a chain. All Apple IDs are users of the chain. They can even give you a airdrop. The airdrops Apple’s Whatever can learn from Web3 like Web2’s company teams, and then use its existing resources to come by the existing resources.Broken you.At that time, what can you use to resist Web2’s attack on you?

If these things may be achieved, it will only accept the criteria that we should not accept in this industry now, and finally it will become that way.Because you have accepted it, you have educated yourself yourself, and then others can provide a better product along the standards you set.I think this is completely possible, so this is where I am very worried.

15. Bandit vs. scholar

Li Yang (host):I don’t know what to say. I have experienced a painful molting process recently. The scholar is going to become a bandit.

From the perspective of the bandit, I think I should throw all these things out of my mind, but I can’t do it.I wrote an article, and many people left a message saying that you have rushed to a few earth dog projects and said that you are a bandit?In your opinion, the scholar is written.

After reading it, who was controlled by the world?Is it determined by these bandits?A certain chain can win, is it determined by the user?The last voting person?If so, everyone has already voted.

Jan xie:This is a philosophical problem, too deep, I am still optimistic.I think many times, the results may not be as we think.However, the progress of human beings is precisely because a few of the cases that have achieved ideal results are determined.Because if the bandits win each time, we may still be in the primitive society, and human society will not make progress.

Therefore, the bandits may win 99 times, and then there is a person who wants to understand. Through some way, lead everyone into the next stage and break away from the previous cycle.I think it may be like this.

Li Yang (host):Do you want to be that lucky scholar?

Jan xie:It is difficult to say what the person who can promote one thing is not necessarily scholar.As you said, he may be a bandit, and he may be a scholar with a knife. Who knows?It may also be a coincidence. It is promoted by a team. The team plays a main role. At the beginning, it was a bandit. Later, I wanted to become a scholar. I do n’t know. It may be possible.Do you think Washington is a bandit or a scholar with a knife?You may be difficult to describe.

Li Yang (host):Yes, yes, I think it is very lucky anyway, and I am almost lucky.

Jan xie:I think this kind of progress may be in a large proportion in history, because I always feel that this is a probability problem. When there are enough people to do so, you are more likely to see a successful person.But if there is only one person doing this, it may not be successful.Because there is only one person, there is a probability that it fails, but when 10,000 people do this, one person may be particularly lucky, and he will come out.He is really lucky to see an individual, but if you look at the whole, it is actually a high probability, so this is why I think the communication and communication between people and recognize the problem is a very important thing, because because it is a very important thing, because because it isIn this way, it is possible to expand the base, so that what we want to see is a consensus we want, this is a process of forming a consensus.

The consensus now is to win the bandit, but I think this can be changed. I am more optimistic, but you need to change it requires a lot of effort.

Li Yang (host):Yes, I think of me as canned catfish. We also have this idea. At least we can let those who want to win through good methods can get together first. At least you know that you are not alone.Someone rushed out.

Jan xie:Yes, I think some people have the same idea to do these things. For example, Ajian’s BTC Study, I think they are doing similar things.

16. What kind of person do you want to recruit?

Li Yang (host):If you want to do it, do you think your team needs some more bandal people to join?

Jan xie:The definition of bangs is very vague. I think it is necessary, and it must not be a group of scholars.

Li Yang (host):Can you talk about recruiting people?What kind of person do you want to recruit?

Jan xie:I think we especially need two kinds of people. One is to translate what we are doing and concepts we are doing, and let others understand.For example, I just said a lot, maybe 2 of 10 people know what I am doing, because this is related to the background. If you do technology, you can easily understand, but how can people with different backgrounds be allowedEveryone understands, how to let everyone understand, there are all kinds of options.Why do you choose not to do this and do not do so, others are successful, why don’t you do it so?In fact, there are various reasons for different choices, and no matter who is right, who can translate these things and let more people understand.This is the first person we want to recruit.

There is also a builter that can do things on CKB.In addition to wanting to adhere to some concepts, Nervos is another feature that has a more builter culture. At least I personally appreciate people who do things.Of course, it is also important to be able to express, but it is also important to do things. I think these two people think they are very needed. Everyone can cooperate well to form a team to do something.

Therefore, Builder is very needed. TA can appreciate Nervos’ ideas and ideas, and is willing to overcome everything on CKB to do something, because the ecology is not mature, and there are many tools that may not be complete, but it doesn’t matter. I am willing to spend some time on it to go there.To solve these problems and do something interesting.

For example, projects like .bit actually spent a lot of time making .bit.Joyid too.I think it is because our community has such culture and people, so it appears. Bit, and projects like Joyid appear.As soon as they come out, everyone can realize that they are not the same as other things. They are not a item often seen on EVM. They come out to make people feel that I don’t think so, or why they can do it, and other projectsCan’t do it.This is a feature of the Nervos community.