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Moderator: Alex, Mint Ventures Research Partner
Guest: Civil Dao, founder of dforce
Hello everyone, welcome to the Web3 Mint To BE initiated by Mint Ventures.Here, we continue to question and think deeply, clarify the facts, explore reality, and find consensus in the web3 world.To clarify the logic behind the hotspot, provide insight into the incident itself, and introduce a variety of thinking perspectives.
This episode is the second phase of the “Web3 track and the future” series of podcasts. Let’s talk about the present and future of the most mature track of the web3 business model.In the last issue, we talked about the topic of Crypto AI.In the subsequent series of programs, we will invite the corresponding guests to talk about the topics of Meme, public chain, depin, game & amp; social, payfi, and Web3 policy related topics.
Alex: In this issue, let’s talk about Defi.We invited the OG Mindao teacher in the field of Defi. He also came to participate in our podcasts before. At that time, it was the topic of talking about AAVE and stable currency.First ask the Mindao Teacher to say hello to our audience.
Civilian road: Hello everyone, I am very happy to come to Mint Ventures again today and talk about DEFI. It has been a while when we talked last time. The entire DEFI track has changed a lot.Share with some observations.
Understanding and interpretation of DEFI
Alex: Okay, I look forward to it.There are many friends who have not yet officially entered this industry, and there are quite a lot of new friends who have paid attention to Web3.So the first topic we want to talk about is those who have not yet officially entered the industry.The Mindao teacher actually started the practice in the field of DEFI a few years ago. If you are now around you who are not familiar with the web3, they come to ask you what DEFI is, and how do you use them too.Can you understand the language?
Civilian road: In fact, I face this problem at each cycle, how to explain Bitcoin, Ethereum, and DEFI.Because at this time, Bitcoin is innovative, so many people who enter the circle will ask me what DEFI is.I think this is better. Many people have concepts for Bitcoin. They are non -sovereign currencies, or electronic gold, and a decentralized system.So now these friends ask me, if they know Bitcoin itself, one of my simple saying is that Bitcoin is a currency. We should be a decentralized currency, then DEFI is an enlarged version on Bitcoin.All the financial systems that our traditional finances can be exposed in except currency, such as transactions, payment, lending, and banking services, in fact, can actually be realized in the expanded DEFI field.You can think that it is an enlarged Bitcoin, the application version of Bitcoin, which I have explained to my friends now, and many of them can get it.Of course, if Bitcoin does not understand at all, it may need to be introduced to this level from decentralization and non -promoting, but I think it is easySome essences.
Alex: Yes, they often add a problem, that is, Bitcoin can be understood that it is an electronic gold and a non -sovereign asset, but most of our current financial services seem to be quite convenient.What is the additional value?If they ask this way, how do you think you can summarize it?
Civilian road: Because I am from traditional finance, I think people who do traditional finance actually know that the supervision of traditional finance is completely over -supervised. This is why it is very difficult to open a bank account now.The United States now debate a large number of scientific and technological companies, especially some entrepreneurs in the currency circle, has been so -called Debank (canceling banking services), and there is no bank service at all.I think that if compared with 10 years and 15 years ago, traditional financial services are becoming more and more difficult to use, the threshold is getting higher and higher, and the resistance is getting bigger.So I think that the biggest difference between Defi provided to us tells us that the biggest difference between traditional finance Tradefi is that essentially I think that Defi is the most essence of finance, which is an information network.Our traditional finance has completely split this information network. Different regulations of various countries, banks’ supervision, and policy differences have led to the information transmission is actually completely split, and the resistance is particularly large.And Defi is restored, finance is information.So whether you do transactions, or assets or borrowing, you will return to the transmission between information and information. There is no obstacle, the so -called is not possible.This is the biggest improvement in traditional finance in Defi.As long as your information can return to a so -called transmission like light speed, there is no obstacle to pass, capital efficiency is tens of times higher than traditional finance.And now we see that this is actually the same, that is, in the DEFI application, you have to compare with traditional finance, such as borrowing and banking, trading and exchanges.If you want to open an account between the country, you must be permitted. As an ordinary person, you cannot trade US stocks and domestic stocks at the same time, and Russian stocks.But the national borders in Defi no longer exist.So in fact, I think DEFI is the perspective of restoring finance to an information theory. It is a message.Therefore, DEFI is the most efficient transmission of information and transmit it at the speed of light.But in traditional finance, you find that the information is not the speed of light, and even I feel that even the speed of sound cannot reach, because each place is about the card, there are levels of national borders, regulatory levels, banks and banks.Therefore, in terms of efficiency, in fact, returning to the most originally originally, Defi must be a lot higher than traditional finance.
View of the status of the Defi track
Alex: Understand, let’s talk about a more in -depth topic.In fact, until today, we can think that it has developed more than two rounds.The real round of flowers is actually the last round, that is, the round of 20 or 21 years. We call it the first year of the DEFI, or it is called a DEFI SUMMER. There are a lot of new projects, but in fact they have survived so farVery few.And in this round of currently, the new project of innovation is far less than the previous round.How can you evaluate the current overall state of the Defi track?
Civilian road: Actually, I think the entire DEFI track is also particularly similar to the field of technology, especially the financial sector. At the beginning, all kinds of flowers were bloomed and various narratives came out.Because everyone has not yet aware of the narrative itself, when Defi Summer, every day has a new financial way of playing.But after you find that in the end, you will precipitate a few tracks, which are the track we say.In fact, from these two cycles, I think the basis of DEFI, we speak primary Primitive, did not surpass 19 years.In 19 years, we happened to be the first wave of Defi.You can imagine that there are Uniswap, MakerDao, and Compound in 19 years.Compound was the first to make a borrowing loan. AAVE was another name EtherLend at the time. It was made of P2P borrowing. It was wrong. Later, it copied the compound approach and then got up.So at that time, the primitives of Defi were three: stablecoin, AMM and borrowing.Looking back now, the foundation of the entire DEFI has not changed. There are some variants on it, such as making some Order Book, and some include Concentrald Liquidity, and then AMM has made some improvements.In addition to the current borrowing of the borrowing, there is also the loan of this isolation pool, but in essence, I don’t think it is out of these three methods.So the situation of the entire current track is that from the two cycles, there are two particularly interesting changes.A change is that DEFI has been commodized in large quantities. Each new chain, each layer2 comes out, is the three major pieces: stable currency, borrowing, and AMM SWAP.These three major pieces, each chain is a large number of commercialization. Of course, a large number of codes that are copied in the market that already have these items that are already in the market are open source. UNISWAP and AAVE use these codes.But at the same time, another very interesting phenomenon is that while being commodized, the concentration is also increasing.For example, the amount of stock transactions of Uniswap, AAVE’s possession in the field of lending, these concentrations are going up.Therefore, it actually reflects that in the Defi track, I think that the two things that have increased commodity and concentration have occurred at the same time.In fact, there have been many new DEFI applications in the past few years.Of course, this is also based on the changes in DEFI’s cognition.From the traditional DEFI, which is centered into the core, has been used in a lot of DE-CEFI combination.Therefore, I do n’t say that there is no innovation. In fact, the track has been highly standardized at the basic primary level. Just three major pieces, and these three major pieces are also very commercialized, and the concentration is increasing.However, at the level of subdivision, some new DEFI applications and tracks also appeared.I think this is a very interesting phenomenon that appears with the infrastructure.
Alex: Yes, you just mentioned three major pieces: stable currency, lending, AMM SWAP.Then, like derivatives, from the last round to the present, there have been a lot of products that have been doing.What do you think of derivatives? Is it suitable to use DEFI?Is it optimistic about its subsequent development?
Civilian road: This point may be related to another problem, that is, what is the underlying logic of the entire Defi track evolution.I have always mentioned the primary principle of a so -called DEFI in previous sharing.What is the first principle?First of all, it must be in the place where the most resistance is, and it will be applied first.For example, in the past Ethereum Layer1, you can think that the main force of its medium is very large, even if the light is transmitted to Ethereum, because of its GAS cost, its throughput is very small, so it canThe DEFI that occurs is limited, which is the previous one we talk about.For example, why can’t you do P2P Lending before AAVE, and why did it be done by the pool mode?Just because P2P Lending, a high GAS and low -throughput main chain, can’t play at all. Its efficiency is too low, and the personal matching efficiency is too low.Similarly, why is the ORDER BOOK be established on the Ethereum main network?At that time, DydX did the order book on the main network, and later withdrew, went to Starknet to do it, and now I do an appchain to do it.You find that the Order Book of Ethereum is also unable to run, AMM was established.In fact, the establishment of all DEFI applications, I think it follows one principle: it is from low -frequency applications, such as borrowing loans, such as AMM, in fact, its frequency is not so high, and stable currency is also a large low -frequency transaction.After more and more performance, the better Layer2 or the new Layer1, and you find that the application of the intermediate frequency and high -frequency applications began to appear immediately.Then the Perpetual one we just talked about, the so -called sustainable piece, why is it made by a centralized exchange, not to say that the previous Ethereum main network is done?Because the centralized exchange is a place where the highest frequency application can come out, Perpetual can only be generated in this environment.But we see that this is more interesting at this time, the new high -performance Layer1 and high -performance Layer2, and Appchain at the same time, the three tracks appear at the same time, we are talking about Perpetual Trading, and the magnitude is very large.For example, in BASE, Synthetix Futures, and Arbitrum like GMX, and then Hyperliquid, which has been special recently, is a COSMOS SDK like DYDX. You find that the so -called Perpetual application is a high -frequency application. It must have a high high frequency application.Frequent infrastructure supports it.That’s why we see many Perpetual out of this cycle.I think the Perpetual of this cycle may not be able to be able to follow the centralized exchange PK such as Binance or OKX, because it still has many performance problems.But I think that as Layer1, including Hyperliquid, you can think that it is an appchain that is very close to the centralized exchange experience.With the emergence of this application chain, I feel that it is possible to compete with centralized exchanges in Perpetual in the future.Of course, you can’t compare it at all, and you don’t need it.Because after all, one is based on the DEFI or non -allowed mode, the other is KYC, and there are other things, more like a centralized exchange model.But in terms of performance, I think it may be infinitely close to the experience of a centralized exchange.
Defi potential space and evolution method
Alex: In fact, you also said that from 19 to the present, the three major pieces of Defi or the most applied type of the market have not changed much.Therefore, many people say that the basic innovation of Defi has actually been completed, and it is believed that there may not be too many surprises in the future.This round does not seem to see a product like the last round.However, some people think that the potential of Defi is far from being released.What is your view on this view?If Defi has a lot of room for growth in the future, what do you think is the promotion factors?How can it evolve in?
Civilian road: In fact, at the basic level, because the entire DEFI is based on the architecture of the blockchain, it is BLOCK BY BLOCK, so we see why there are not too many innovations at the basic paradigm.Solana still builds an underlying infrastructure according to a model of block and a block.However, the entire DEFI, the change of this cycle and the previous two cycles is that everyone’s understanding of DEFI has changed a lot.The previous Defi was called Decentralized Finance, but I think that everyone has not regarded Decentralized as a core component at all.More importantly, Permitles.I saw this cycle that it was relatively innovative, like Pendle, like Ethena.PENDLE is a protocol for fixed interest rates and floating interest rates, a protocol similar to a solid income.Ethena is a special typical stable currency for USDE.In fact, it is a strategy of stabilizing currency. When we were entering the currency circle, I have been doing it in 14 years until now, that is, the so -called Basis Point.The entire strategy of doing the transaction end, starting from Bitcoin, the market has been doing it. It is nothing more than how the spot and the futures room make the basis arbitrage.Ethena turns this thing into a tokens, and then the so-called In-House strategy used by only some trader is completely democratized, and then the market is allowed to capture the fluctuations of the so-called market market Bitcoin or other currencies fluctuations.A basic income.If you ask people from a few cycles, no one will think that Ethena is a DEFI project, because its entire infrastructure is added to a centralized exchange for arbitrage. Although the assets have custody, the hosting itself is not in itselfIn the contract, the custody of the custodian agency is custody.Therefore, from the perspective of architecture, it is actually not seen.But from its tokens, everyone can use its currency to cast it and go to SWAP its existing tokens. It is DEFI.So I think everyone can call it applications such as DE-CEFI or CE-Defi.There are many applications like this in this cycle, such as some projects of the Bitcoin ecosystem, and many of the projects of Liquid-Staking are similar to this way.So I think we actually expand the definition of the entire Defi at this time, and then you find that the contribution of the entire DEFI tvl in this cycle in the past, there are a large number of this like Liquid Staking, like I just said, I just saidEthena projects, including RWA, chain projects. In fact, for the entire DEFI rejuvenation, its entire TVL contribution accounts for a large proportion.So I think the evolution of Defi is the evolution of the entire concept. From our so -called decentralized finance to open finance, it is actually a mixture, centralization and decentralization mixed together.So from this perspective, I think the opportunity of subsequent segmentation may produce a lot of very interesting combinations.Of course, if you are purely the most primitive and at the DEFI level of the principleism, then there are indeed not many options.Because the previous track of this kind of decentralized stablecoin is basically done, or the stable currency track of Ponzi’s Ponzi stable coin track like before has basically no project.Unlike a pile of DEFI Summer, there is a decentralized stable currency on this chain governance.So after I think the entire definition changes, you find that many new applications have emerged from the Defi track, and TVL has grown very fast.
The restrictions of Defi development on Solana
Alex: Just now, the Ministry of Minister said that the first is the definition of Defi. The value provided by another DEFI has changed from the so -called decentralization to no license. Then there is convenience and everyone can reach it.I have always had a problem before, that is, the chain of Solana, in fact, the big difference from Ethereum is that Solana’s nodes may be relatively small and concentrated.There is stronger anti -review.But now we have returned to the user experience, decentralization is not so important. In fact, in terms of accessibility, it is technical availability. In fact, Sorana is actually very good.But even in this cycle, we found that its Defi evolution did not resonate with its entire ecological business data.Let’s look at its DEFI TVL or stable currency on the chain or some TVLs of the DEFI project. It does not seem to have evolved very quickly. Compared with Ethereum’s business data.For the chain such as Solana, their DEFI is relatively slow to evolve. What are the factors do you think the possible causes or restrictions?
Civilian road: In fact, I think this is because everyone may have a lot of misunderstandings about DEFI. I feel that as long as a chain is fast enough, the funds can be migrated immediately.Because we have done DEFI for 19 years, I think DEFI is the same as all financial companies. The longer it runs, the greater its stickiness.The so -called viscosity of financial companies is actually a security threshold.For example, how do you check whether the DEFI of a system is strong enough, such as Ethereum, the entire DEFI system is now nearly 200 billion US dollars.It is equivalent to saying that there is a Bounty of 200 billion US dollars in this ecosystem, that is, funds attack all kinds of hackers.The TVL inside is not out of thin air. It was that in the past Ethereum had paid nearly tens of billions of dollars in the past, such a high moat appeared.So why did Solana unable to move this thing, in fact, the entire trust cost and safety cost viscosity is very high.This is why the value of Ethereum is that as long as there is enough time to move forward, it is difficult for these TVLs to migrate.And I think there is another key issue, because I have new applications in these ecology. I don’t think I think the interactive experience, or the chain of ARBITRUM will be lost to Solana.EssenceThe cost of GAS is actually lower than solana, and it is used on the base.Where is the only bad place?I think it is the user’s cognition, so as the chain of Solana, there is no Layer 1, layer 2, there will be no so -called confusion.But there are too many Ethereum, Arbitrum, OP Base is a bunch of superchain.In concept, I think this confusion may occur on Go to Market.Go back to the question you just said, why do you say its TVL, its DEFI cannot move there so quickly. I think this network effect, including Solidity as a development language, has the most complete tools first, and then there is the most at the mostThe audit case has the most components.In this point, I think it is very difficult to fully copy the chain like Solana.And the most fundamental question is, why is Ethereum walking Layer 2 and Layer 2 in the future. What is the advantage of competing with such Sorana’s single -chain?In fact, I think that if more companies want to go to the chain in the future, because you will not expect to put all my financial infrastructure on Solana, like Banks or JP Morgan said, he will definitely send a chain.In this case, you will definitely choose a large public chain to support it. For example, it may be a layer 2 to build it in Ethereum.Under this premise, in fact, if you can find more TVL and combined applications, from this point of view, if Solana wants to leverage the TVL of Ethereum, I think it will be more difficult.So you find that the network effect between TVL is to restrain each other. It is not simply that the coins of my chain are up, and my TVL’s application has passed.Including the interesting phenomenon recently is USDT.USDT is now integrating all his chain coins to migrate a lot of USDT’s currency issuance rights to the Ethereum main network.In fact, it is also based on security considerations.So this so -called Defi viscosity and security, I think other new layer2 even if it is good, it is difficult to pry this thing in a short time, let alone in Ethereum. I just said it. In factThere are many layer2 in terms of performance that will not be worse than these new Layer1.
The advantage of the MOVE language is
Alex:learn.Assume that we now see many public chains in Move language, and even some EVM compatible Move L2 have come out. Recently, Movement has just entered Binance.So like MOVE language, a value proposition they have been playing is to say that the MOVE language is used to build DEFI as a variety of financial services than Solidity language.As a developer and entrepreneur, this advantage of Move language is so attractive for developers?
Civilian road: We have seen these ecology, including us and solana and their team have known them very early. Like them, they all use Rust. In fact, in terms of expression, many people may say that it is much better than Solidity.thing.Not only is Move, in fact, many new public chains like Tezos have made their own new languages, and they are also popular formal verification.But you will find that these new languages will soon disappear.I think the core question is that it is difficult for you to strictly say which language really has a congenital advantage from the architecture level.I think the most important thing for a developer is your time.The earlier you use it, like all the faults of Solidity, the problems that should have occurred have been filled with the pit by our developers with real gold and silver.In this case, do you say it is not safe?At least from the perspective of our development, I don’t look at this problem like this.Because it has enough cases, enough tools to support it, there are enough automated audit things, there are enough audit companies COVER, and there are enough hackers.For example, it is very simple. I send a Bounty. Solidity may have tens of thousands of white hats in this range, but the Move and Solana ecosystem may be hundreds of thousands.So I think the safety of security itself is a variable, and there is no absolutely so -called safe language.The biggest problem is how to build its own moat in the future for new languages.If there is no enough potential energy, in fact, in fact, it will enter a state, just like burning firewood, this firewood is wet, and it will never reach the burning point.In this case, it may not be a certainty. Unlike Solidity, there are enough cases to verify it to verify it.So I think the language itself does not have the so -called absolute advantages and disadvantages.This is why we see that recently like Monad wants to compatible with EVM with EVM.Instead, you see that there are a lot of new infrastructure that came from that route. How can you make some new higher -performance some infrastructure of some of the new and higher performance chains, such as EVM compatible with this execution environment, or make a new new environment, or make a new new environment, or make a new new environment, or make a new new environment, or make a new wayThe public chain comes out.There are actually a lot of projects on this route.
The impact of US political situation on the field of encryption
Alex: Understand, like the MONAD you just mentioned, including Movement seems to be this direction.Then this year, a very big policy changed, that is, from November, Trump won the president, and the Republican Party also won most of the seats of the two houses.In particular, it seems that the development of the encrypted industry is expected to have been greatly improved. Recently, the Fifth Tour Court of the United States has ruled that OFAC’s sanctions on Tornado Cash were illegal.What do you think of the current impact of US political situation on DEFI and even on the entire encryption field, what are the optimistic parts, and what are the risk factors that are not optimistic?
Civilian road: From the level of optimism, it has surpassed my most optimistic expectations. I did not expect that it was so ruthless. It was the Trump bull market. Trump’s children went directly to the DEFI project.I think the entire Crypto’s penetration of the Trump administration, such as Donald Trump JR, has a Defi project. Baron is still studying because of another child.I think it may have a great impact on Trump in the core circle.In addition, see Vance, and then no need to say that David Sacks is penetrated by people of PayPal Mafia.So you can see that in Trump’s character circles, all are all PRO CRYPTO.So I think that at the political level, there is no doubt that it is more optimistic than I expected, and I think it may be too optimistic.I am more worried about this, including whether Bitcoin is included in the US reserves.From a optimistic level, I feel that there is indeed no ceilings at this cycle. Instead, this optimism itself may break the so -called 4 -year cycle of the previous currency circle.I think there is a high probability of legislation at the legislative level that is completely targeted at Crypto’s entire regulatory framework, rather than regulating the set of Crypto into the so -called Security Law system as the existing SEC.I think there may be a completely independent regulatory system.If this appears, I think it may not only be DEFI, it is very optimistic about the development of the entire web3.In such a pessimistic perspective, in fact, it is obvious that cryptocurrencies themselves are no longer a so -called non -party politics.I am more worried about this. After the entire election, the Republican and Democratic Party have formed a line between Crypto and Against Crypto.I think cryptocurrencies have now been regarded as a differentiation issue of bipartisan politics.What should I do if Trump will not go up 4 years later?Will these policies be re -changed?This is a topic that is difficult to return to neutrality now. It is the core issue of a standing team between the Republican and Democratic Party.
Alex: Yes, Trump may not necessarily reach 4 years. It may be that the Republican Party’s parliament can get so many seats at the time of the 26 -year election, and there will be challenges at that time.
Civilian road: Yes, but I think it ’s better that the entire operation of this time is not only to say that Trump came to power, including Lobby in the two hospitals.Awe.This awe me is not necessarily a righteous word, it may be a derogatory term, that is, it feels that the impact is too great.Especially the Lobby team supported by Ripple’s organization, among the substitutions of the US Senate’s election, the winning percentage is 85%. As for his backor, these Crypto Senator 100 people have a 85% win rate. This is very high.Winning rate.So this is actually terrible, which means that all these Against Crypto people may have no chance to enter the US legislative agreement in the future.From this point of view, I think it may also cause some counterattacks of the Democratic or Anti Crypto.
Alex: Yes, I think Fair Shake has been preparing for the mid -term election in 2026, and it has raised tens of millions in advance.
Civilian road: Yes, of course, this is a good thing, not only from the administrative level, but in fact, the legislative level is also very deep.
The process of Bitcoin entering the state finances conjecture
Alex: As far as your current observation, one of the most concerned narratives for this round of cycle is actually the process of Bitcoin’s entry into the national finance.Nowadays, not only the national level, the state levels are preparing a bill at the Bitcoin. I think it is faster like Pennsylvania and California.Can you be optimistic about whether it can legislate at the national level in the past 4 years?
Civilian road: I think it may not be so easy to legislate at the United States.If the state level, I think it is easy to do, because the scope of the finance that can be controlled at the state level is relatively small.If you put it at the national level, I think there may be some difficulty.One of them is that I think there is still a strong force in the United States. Most people think that although Bitcoin is now called electronic gold, many people still be non -sovereign currencies.This is the positioning itself. I think the most fundamental is to fight the so -called fiat currency Debasement, the so -called depreciation of the fiat currency.Therefore, from the fundamental purpose, it thinks that the United States is the only international reserve. As far as the wishes of most people in the United States, I think there is a certain conflict.In fact, many people in the United States hold this view.They think Bitcoin, although called electronic gold, and gold PK, but they think they are finally PK with the US dollar.And it is true that it is in PK with all the fiat currency, because of the Debase of the fiat currency, Bitcoin has room for growth.So in this regard, I think the resistance is still quite large.Of course, it depends on how much political belief he has to push this in. It is hard to say.According to his style, he may really push it specially.But this is not to say that the president of the United States is just pushing, and it is necessary to pass the level of legislation.
Alex: Yes, I also agree with the point you just said, because in fact, I see many US sanctions countries, including Russia and Iran. They now use Bitcoin as a potential option for national reserves.The US dollar means that it is better to use Bitcoin as a reserve. This does challenge the status of the US dollar as a basic reserve asset.
Civilian road: Yes, so now everyone defines Bitcoin as electronic gold, which is actually a strategy of cleverness.It is said that we are with the gold PK, first to the ratio of 13 trillion and 15 trillion, and let’s finish the gold PK first.No one is talking about competing with the US dollar, but I think the bottom is still the same.You have to say gold, but you are an electronic gold and can be divided infinitely. What is the difference between currency?There is no difference.But the currency circle is also unwilling to put this issue particularly important.But I think the US Treasury or Financial Circle also understands these.
The possibility of buying a DEFI project in a large company
Alex: Then let’s talk about a topic that focuses more on DEFI. Now we look at the ETF of Bitcoin, and Ethereum ETF also has it.It is not a big news that listed companies and even government finances to hold BTCs. It is normal for most companies to buy Bitcoin.In your opinion, with the compliance of the encrypted industry in the United States, will they consider some blue chip projects of DEFI, such as AAVE and UNI as a merger and acquisition of these traditional financial companies, or at least a potential shares participating in shares.The target, will you think this will happen in the next one to two years?
Civilian road: This is also a very interesting topic.We now see the relationship between Bitcoin ETF and Wall Street or traditional finance. They only regard it as another trading asset, such as electronic gold.In fact, it is still split with traditional finance, that is, it is only part of AUM, a part of the scope of asset management, and the user wants me to give him.But I think this cycle has happened quite interesting.One is that except for us just talking about these two independent individuals, Bitcoin and Gold are actually no different. My Blackrock company also provides different products for my users. Others have no correlation with BlackRock.of.But Bitcoin and Micro -strategy are more interesting. Micro -strategy is also a traditional company. It is a software company, but now it is a financial company. You can think so.But its relationship with Bitcoin is actually the relationship between the ETF and BlackRock we mentioned earlier, which is a completely independent individual.Bitcoin and micro -strategy are now twin relationships.Why is the twin relationship?The key point between connecting the two twin brothers is volatility.Bitcoin’s volatility and micro -strategy stock volatility, these two points are connected together.Bitcoin fluctuations, its stock fluctuations.Its stock fluctuations will also affect Bitcoin fluctuations.So I think this is a particularly interesting phenomenon. In fact, such a double token mechanism has been established between Bitcoin and listed companies in the United States. One of them is Bitcoin, and the other is the stock of listed companies, just like us, like usPlaying this bipolar in DEFI, the maternal economic model is linked to each other.It is particularly interesting that to some extent a double -prominent coin mechanism like Bitcoin and micro -strategy, it is a connection between traditional stock price volatility and Bitcoin.Then back to the DEFI level, to say that BlackRock to buy AAVE and buy Uniswap’s Token, I think this matter is not enough to Sexy.I have predicted that the twin relationships like Bitcoin and micro -strategy in the next three or five years will have the twin relationship between Bitcoin and micro -strategy.What do you mean?That is, a DEFI protocol controls a listed company. This listed company may be opened by the bank. It may be a lending or a Banking.The fiat currency is directly called to the DEFI on a chain.This is that I really think that it is possible to form such twin two currencies in DEFI and Wall Street companies.I think this is possible to happen in the next cycle.Because now we see that, in addition to micro -strategy, including Marathon, companies including many mining machines have begun to buy Bitcoin.With the strategy of micro -strategy, it is actually equal to that its stock is not only related to the difficulty of Bitcoin’s computing power, but it is actually related to the price of Bitcoin.So I think that the more likely and more interesting in the future is that we are called “the former listed company DEFI”.Your listed company is another channel for my DEFI to make debt issuance, to make equity financing, go to the bank’s license plate, and then connect these two worlds.I think this is based on Trump’s gameplay, such as the World Liberty DEFI he is doing now, may be stable in the next step, and then do you have to get a bank license in the next step?Companies are all possible.I really think it may occur in the next three or five years, and it will occur in this cycle of his office.Of course, in addition to him, the traditional DEFI project may also make some attempts in that direction.I think this is more interesting, just how to really establish a relationship in the economic model in the mechanism.Your DEFI makes money. My shareholders of my stock must benefit, and then the balance sheet of my shares will expand, and it will also help my DEFI to get more traditional funds in.I think this is a more interesting combination.
Alex: This point of view is indeed unheard of before, and it feels very novel and imaginative.Previously, there were BTCs and micro -strategies of the stock version, and there were listed companies with the Defi version.I feel this is really interesting.That’s the view of returning to those large financial institutions for DEFI.They may now be more like you say, configure a bitcoin channel, so that their customers can buy it, and they are more asset management.You feel that they will make DEFI -related financial applications by themselves.For example, like Palegers or some other financial institutions.
Civilian road: Actually, we see the traditional Morgan Chase, and they have their own blockchain system inside.Of course, this is not connected to the public chain.The most most used in it is the settlement of foreign exchange.You can think that its entire mode is not much different from the CURVE mode, or there are not many differences in the UNISWAP pool.But this type of application is actually more liquidation between banks. I think this is what he may have to do in the first step.Then the next step is to push to the public chain and use the infrastructure of the public chain.This is also what we said before. In fact, I think the entire public chain competition, such as the single -chain model of Solana, or the model of we go to the Ethereum.What posture is accessing to the public chain.If he wants to do it in a controllable way, he must send a Layer2 or Layer3 himself, and then access it to the public network.So I think that if he wants to enter DEFI in the future, it must be controllable, that is, in a Permission chain.I think it may be like the models of Coinbase and Kraken, but they will be more conservative than them.This is the core of the gameplay that I think they ended, and they are more conservative than them.Because Coinbase is a company in the currency circle after all.But you find that coinbase is actually more conservative.When Binance is doing BSC, many gameplay is actually more aggressive than Coinbase.Why is it radical?Because Binance may have some of his own DEFI projects, it may be hatched or done by himself, but Coinbase basically does not really want to incubate this project.So I think that in the future financial institutions enter the market, it is likely to be similar to Coinbase and Kraken.He will lay a layer2, and then do some components of Defi up.And the probability may also use some open source code like Uniswap.However, they may add their permissions, access, and whitelists to his entire logic.I think there may be a high probability that it is unfolded in this way.
Alex:learn.In fact, it is like Coinbase or Kraken. Basically, they have chosen OP’s Stack without exception, and basically they have entered a big ecosystem of Superchain.I listen to your meaning earlier. In fact, if you also think that this large financial institution wants to do the chain by itself, the possibility of choosing Ethereum ecology is also greater, right?
Civilian road: Yes, I think in fact, for the so -called chain performance you are talking about, the performance of Ethereum now Layer 2, including future improvement, can fully meet the needs of these financial institutions.The most important thing is that I think Ethereum Layer 2 includes the current strategies between OP and Arbitrum two Layer 2. For example, now OP has done the ecology of many Layer 2 superchain. In the end, it may be solved to solveHow to unite the liquidity between Layer 2 is the communication between chain, so that the transaction may be completed in one transaction in different Superchain’s Layer 2 to solve the so -called Layer 2 split liquidity problem.I think this problem will bring another network effect. More people will be willing to add it, and the network effect of liquidity is particularly strong.Then there is another person that it may become difficult to get rid of this network.This is why I actually do not worry about these coinbase independent.As long as this chain is enough, the liquidity and network effect between the chain are established, and it is not so easy to get rid of it.After you get rid of it, make a Layer 10 % of the islands, which may not have a better value than in the modern Layer 2 architecture.
Impression of projects and judgment dimensions
Alex: I feel that this is a deeper that I have heard recently. What is the ecology of Ethereum, the ecology of Ethereum, is a very novel and insightful point of view compared to SOL.You also talked about it, in fact, you also saw some new products in this round.So in the past year, which products have left you a deeper impression on you, whether it is the new development of old projects or the emergence of new projects.
Civilian road: I mentioned two of the new projects, Pendle and Ethena.In fact, I think the PENDLE model is very twists, because at the earliest, they came out to say that they were doing so -called fixed and floating interest rate products. I saw it at the time.Because I am traditional finance, I think it is particularly bad design that it has a expiration date.I have always had a particularly big prejudice. I think that the products that have date in DEFI are basically a dead end.Including a lot of options transactions that have done such an expiration date, or the OPTION products such as futures transactions, they basically did not do it later.So when they came out at the time, they did this so -called fixed -income product. I didn’t look at it at the time. I think this seems to be not established in Crypto.But after the LSD and the RESTAKING protocol this time, I think they did find this very niche Market. At least at this stage, a large number of these pledge agreements and pledge agreements. They did introduce two waves of games, oneIt is a big person who is interested in solidarity, and does not want to bet on UTOKEN’s rise and fall or points.In addition, he met some retail investors or hairs, and they needed the so -called speculative needs of U token.I think it is well combined with these two groups. At least at this stage, I really find the market demand point.So I think there are many Defi narratives. When we look at it, we may easily deny it.Of course, I don’t think that PENDLE is the final model. I think whether it is interest rate interchange or solid -collection product, there may still be a sustainable class, such as the solid income and variable vastness of sustainable categories.Demolition of benefits.It’s a bit like a perpetual contract. Everyone can always trade instead of Roll my posity after the expiration.I think PENDLE is also doing new things.I think this track really seems to find a very important application that he calls the so -called Product Market Fit.In addition, Ethena, I think he has turned a trading strategy we are used to it into everyone’s general public, and now it has increased to $ 5 billion.I feel that the tokenization of the entire revenue market. From the perspective of the token level, they are still doing the best in terms of the trigger of retail investors.And now we see that after their products come out, all the exchanges are doing it, including Binance also pushed out FDUSD, and I saw OKX and Binance here. The interest rate of their borrowing market is actually basically basicallyThe basic return of this rate arbitrage is anchored.So in fact, exchanges are also learning this strategy.So, these two products, I think this cycle is indeed in terms of innovation. It really can really find a better foothold.The other is the chain of government bonds. In fact, this cycle we see that in DEFI, it is completely different from DEFI Summer.When DEFI Summer was subsidized, there was no so -called Real Yield.However, we see that this cycle MakerDao is now conducted by a large amount of benefits from the underlying national debt.This is also what we said before. Are this thing called DEFI?It is not called DEFI according to the traditional definition.But this cycle is what we said, called the combination of de-CEFI.For example, we just said that Ethena, its positions are all on the centralized exchange, and then Makerdao’s national debt is all offline trusts, theoretically, it is also very centralized.But you find that this so -called centralization and the combination of semi -centerization have solved many problems of real benefits, because these are real benefits, one from the leverage market, one from the benefits of U.S. Treasury bonds, and then through this kind of via this kind of US Treasury bonds.Real income allows users to get through DEFI distribution.So I think the entire DEFI evolution, we have seen from the definition of purely the so -called original teachings to the more pragmatic mixture, which is also a very interesting point in this cycle.In addition, a phenomenon that has appeared in the past year is that before we saw that Defi had coins, we must issue coins.We now see that PolyMarket, Pump.fun has a very so -called so -called income demand when there is no coin.What is this trend?It is like PolyMarket and Pump.fun without a good infrastructure.Both applications depend on a good infrastructure. Polymarket is based on Polygon and Pump.fun is based on Solana.So we can see that as our so -called Layer 2 and the new strategy are getting better and better, there will be a lot of tokens and may not require tokens, but at the same time, it will provide enough use.Value DEFI application.We are particularly obvious now.Back to what I just said, I said that the first principle of Defi is that as the performance is getting better and better, some applications that need to be dependent on this high -performance chain will emerge.This is a typical type of application.I think there may be a lot of this in the future.Including we see a lot of Trading Bot now, but Trading Bot is particularly profitable.It can earn 1 million or 2 million US dollars a week as Pump.fun.In this regard, I think it is particularly different from the previous two cycles we told us.In the previous two cycles, it was basically difficult to start a project without tokens.But now we see a large number of these types of applications, in fact, do not require tokens at all, and also find its market demand.
Alex: As an investor to invest in a DEFI project, you will focus on what dimensions of it, or what do you think of the more typical DEFI items?
Civilian road: I think the length of the investment cycle.If you just look at the cycle of one or two years, it may be the kind of Narrate Driven, which is a little more about narrative Driven, such as investing in some more popular mechanism Defi projects.But from my perspective, I look at the longer cycle, which is the cycle.If we look at it from the perspective of a long cycle, we must truly survive a few cycles of projects.I used to think that the community was very important. It seemed to be a very strong community drive, but now I found that the DEFI project may not be the most critical.Because we now see that several Defi projects with the highest valuation and the highest moat may have little to do with the community.For example, UNISWAP is now the market value of tens of billions of dollars. Uniswap has a large number of users, but it is difficult to say that it has a community.AAVE is different. AAVE has a certain community. You can see the discussion in the forum.But Uniswap I think including AAVE and MAKER. There are two aspects of the last big moat of these projects. One is of course continuous innovation, and each time is a further innovation than Cycle.They also have a key point that the brand is particularly powerful.Anyone can forks uniswap now, V1 V2 V3, and fork it.I think UNISWAP’s current market value may be 60% and 70% of its brand.And this is what others do not leave, I think these projects have basically done it.Of course, in DEFI, in fact, if you have a brand, you depend on two, one is the continuous innovation I just said.But you don’t necessarily innovate the first. For example, AAVE is not the first innovation, but it is done from 19 years to now. Compound does not do it.Compound is now the founder who came out to do another project.After the real DAO, there are very few compound innovations, but AAVE is actually constantly innovating every cycle.The other is DEFI. I think the most core is security. Uniswap has not had security accidents. Compound, Maker and AAVE have happened, but at least these security incidents did not make them unable to get up.So when I think these two points are done, its brand value is continuously strengthened with each cycle.In this regard, I think it is its largest moat.It is difficult for you to see other projects below, and you can see that it is a project with a high concentration of concentration now.
Configure the principle of DEFI project
Alex: In terms of specific secondary asset allocation, in addition to BTC and Ethereum, some of the blue -chip choices we are talking about, and projects such as Defi, especially some leading projects, will it be among the list of allocation of your investment?We still talk about long cycles.
Civilian road: I will basically not match.I do n’t deserve a fundamental reason that we have done DEFI, and I have invested time and energy in this set up.Therefore, this may be a relatively large difference between me and other investors, that is, we don’t need to go to Double’s thing, and more configuration in the public chain will be a little more configuration.
Alex: Understand, if an ordinary web3 investor, maybe there are BTCs and Ethereum in his Portfolio, and then there are some public chain tokens.Do you think projects such as DEFI should become part of most ordinary investors’ investment?
Civilian road: Actually, I have shared it before. I think the important thing in investment is the investment portfolio.For example, when entering the currency circle in 13 years.I said at the time that in addition to Bitcoin, my investment portfolio invested 30% of the messy projects, and it must be a non -Bitcoin project.At that time, I invested a lot. In 14 years, I cast an ICO of Ethereum and bet on Ethereum.There are many ICOs in Ethereum, at that time there were about three or four.At that time, ICO was very small. In 13 or 14 years, there were very few. A few ICOs may be invested in a year. Basically, each of them was cast. Of course, the proportion of allocation was different.I think if it is a retail investor, the construction of the investment portfolio is the most critical, and it cannot all in Bitcoin and Ethereum.Of course, I really want to turn over this currency, not to double it.If you want to turn over, I feel that the first one cannot be all in mainstream coins. For example, some of the aggressive people are 100 % to the cottage.I know that someone around is 100 % compensated.If his ability to make money is strong enough, he has taken it out to distribute the funds, and it is not so -called to lose money. Then I think this strategy is not wrong.Just one percent of ALL in, even entered MEME coins into Degen coins, I think this is no problem.If you are building an investment, I think at least 30% of the so -called alternatives may be except for mainstream currencies.The DEFI is definitely a track worth allocating.In addition to DEFI, I don’t know which types of applications in Crypto really have Value Capture.Now all the so -called Real Yield and Real Income are DEFI applications.So in this regard, if you really don’t consider the mainstream coins, only the cottage coins are considered, Defi will definitely account for a very large proportion, and I think at least 50% of the proportion.Then the remaining 50%, you may make up some degen coins, MEME or other types of tracks.
Alex: Okay, today I am very grateful to the Master Dao teacher for giving us very deep and involving the topic very widely sharing. Next time, there is a chance. Welcome to the topic of the Master Dao on the topic of DEFI and Crypto to share with our opinions and views.Thank you for your time.
